I was just listening to a the Daily Podcast from the NYT. I followed a Michigan congresswoman Elissa Slotkin to town halls she held in her district to talk about the Trump impeachment. I thought she was pretty good, but as I was listening, I was wondering to myself how I would have handled some of the Trump supporters who seemed honest but who get their info from Fox News or Rush Limbaugh.
There was one Trump supporter, a teacher, who sounded honest and reasonable. And in what follows I try to imagine a more prolonged conversation with him if I were a congressperson like Slotkin:
Teacher: I think you’re a decent guy, but I also think you’re on the wrong track in supporting this move to investigate the president. I don’t think that this is anything more than a politically motivated attempt to remove the man we Americans elected to be our president.
Congressperson: Yes. Impeachment is a very serious step to take, and it should be the last resort. I have been against impeachment, but what we’ve learned about the president's conversations with Zelensky in the Ukraine is seriously concerning, and warrants a deeper investigation.
Teacher: Why? What’s the big deal? He asks for some information about a political opponent. What else is new? This is how the world works, and you want to impeach him for that?
Congressperson: You do understand it’s against the law for any American politician to seek foreign assistance to help him get elected in America, right?
Teacher: Yes, it’s wrong. But it’s not impeachable. You Democrats are just making a mountain out of a molehill.
Congressperson: Does it not concern you that the president was threatening to withhold military aid if Zelensky did not comply with his request?
Teacher: There was no quid pro quo.
Congressperson: Did you read the summary of the call?
Teacher: Yes.
Congressperson: Did you not read the part where Zelensky asks for some javelin missiles, and the President says, “Yes, but I want a favor, though.”
Teacher: So what?
Congressperson: Doesn’t it bother you that the president is jeopardizing the security of a foreign ally to promote his own political interests?
Teacher: He’s not promoting his political interests. He’s trying to clear up a corruption problem in the Ukraine, and to get to the bottom of how the Bidens are a part of it. He’s doing the American people a service by trying to shed daylight on a serious problem.
Congressperson. Let’s set aside the question about Hunter Biden for a moment, and let me ask you this: Does it bother you at all that Trump in withholding aid to the Ukraine is acting in a way that supports Russian interests rather than American interests and the interests of our NATO allies? Do you think uncovering the Bidens’ corruption is more important than that?
Teacher: The Russians. The Russians. Democrats are always talking about the Russians.
Congressperson: Do you think that Russia and Putin are good guys? Are you okay with his just marching into the Crimea and annexing it, or with his invasion of the eastern sections of Ukraine? Are you ok with the way the Russians meddled in the 2016 election are likely to do it again in 2020?
Teacher: No.
Congressperson: Doesn’t it concern you that the one consistent element of Trump’s foreign policy has been his refusal to criticize Putin about anything, that his campaign manager Paul Manafort was in debt to a Russian oligarch and is now in prison, that his first secretary of state, Rex Tillerson, was named secretary after his company Exxon had just completed a massive business deal with the Russian government, that Trump’s first National Security Adviser, Michael Flynn, was on the phone during the inauguration talking about how they wanted to remove sanctions against Russia, and that he’s about to face prison time for lying about his dealings with the Russians and other foreign governments like Turkey? You don’t think there’s something concerning about what we already know and that there is good reason to believe that there is much that we don’t know that would be equally concerning? You really don’t think that there isn’t enough there to warrant investigations? You don’t find this highly unusual?
Teacher: Not particularly. I’m sure this kind of thing goes on all the time with Democrats as well as with Republicans.
Congressperson: So is there any line this president could cross that would justify his impeachment? Is there any fact pattern that comes to light that you will simply not dismiss as Democratic propaganda if it’s unfavorable to the president?
Teacher: Probably not.
Congressperson: So is this what you teach your students—that facts don’t matter, that the only thing that matters is being loyal to the people in your political tribe? And that the only facts that matter are the ones that support your political views?
Teacher: Well, in complicated situations it’s hard to know which facts are really facts, and which are fake news and propaganda. So you have to go with your instincts and common sense. A successful businessman like Trump has more common sense in his little finger than technocratic swamp creatures like Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden.
Congressperson: I understand why you would think that way. There are good reasons to feel that the Beltway is a swamp and that anybody who thrives there has become a swamp creature. But do you really believe that Trump and his family are not themselves swamp creatures? I don’t know what your information sources are, but already there has been more corruption and self-dealing on the part of Trump appointees in the first two years of the Trump presidency than was in eight years of the Obama presidency. Do you really believe that Trump offers something significantly better than what we had with Obama whom everybody agrees was about as uncorrupt as you can get?
Teacher: Obama was the exception that proves the rule.
Congressperson: If you feel that way, are you ok with the fact that Trump was one of the most aggressive “birthers” out there trying delegitimate Obama’s presidency? That was crazy, right? You’re not a birther are you?
Teacher: No.
Congressperson: And are you ok with the way Trump has the military and foreign dignitaries staying at his hotels? Are you okay that Trump, unlike any other president in decades, refuses to be transparent about his tax returns? Doesn’t that bother you? Doesn’t that make you think there’s a high probability that there something pretty bad he’s trying to hide? If you can just step back for a moment and try to look at him objectively, can you understand why some people could in good faith see Trump as someone who is unfit to serve as president?
Teacher: Trump’s no saint, but he’s my guy, and I’m going to stand by him.
Congressperson: Well, thanks for being honest about that. But I hope at least you can understand why other people who don’t feel that way about him might have legitimate reasons to undertake this impeachment inquiry. And all I can ask is that you keep an open mind to the possibility that this impeachment, while it is politically driven, might also be in the best interests of the country.
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